KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday, striking back. Iran retaliates against Israel launching more than 300 drones and missiles and warns the U.S. about getting involved.
DANIEL HAGARI:
This is a severe and dangerous escalation.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Is the war now expanding into a wider conflict? I’ll talk to National Security Council Spokesman John Kirby and Republican Congressman Mike Turner, the chair of the House Intelligence Committee. Plus, abortion battlegrounds.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
The states will be making the decision.
CROWD:
Shame on you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
The fight over abortion access intensifies, after Arizona's Supreme Court reinstates a 160-year-old law banning nearly all abortions.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
We broke Roe v. Wade and we did something no one thought was possible.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Donald Trump struggles to define his position on reproductive rights, while Democrats see a political opportunity.
VICE PRES. KAMALA HARRIS:
Donald Trump is the architect of this health care crisis.
KRISTEN WELKER:
How will the abortion issue shape the 2024 election? I’ll talk to Democratic Governor Gretchen Whitmer of Michigan. And, criminal defendant. Donald Trump's first criminal trial is set to begin in Manhattan.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
All i can do is tell the truth and the truth is that there's no case. They have no case.
KRISTEN WELKER:
How will it impact the 2024 campaign? Joining me for insight and analysis are NBC News Washington Managing Editor Carol Lee, Wall Street Journal Columnist Peggy Noonan and Washington Post Columnist Eugene Robinson. Welcome to Sunday, it’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. The world is waking up to a new inflection point in the war in the middle east. Overnight, Iran mounted a wide-scale aerial attack on Israel, launching more than 300 drones and missiles in retaliation for Israel's air strike on Iran's consulate in Syria two weeks ago that killed 7 members of Iran's revolutionary guard, including two top commanders. This is the first time Iran has directly attacked Israel from its own territory. The Israeli military with this forceful response.
[START TAPE]
DANIEL HAGARI:
Iran has launched a direct attack from Iranian soil towards the state of Israel. This is a severe and dangerous escalation.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
According to Israeli Defense Forces, 99% of the missiles and drones were intercepted by Israeli and U.S. forces. A few fell inside Israeli territory. The strikes caused minor damage to one Israeli military base in southern Israel and severely injured a young child. Urgent efforts at diplomacy are expected to intensify. President Biden says he will convene a meeting of the group of 7 leaders today. On Saturday, he spoke with Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu and reaffirmed "America's ironclad commitment to the security of Israel." A senior administration official tells NBC News he also urged Netanyahu not to retaliate but, quote, "take the win, you've hit the win." For its part, Israel's defense minister says its confrontation with Iran is “not over yet.” And already, Republican rhetoric is ratcheting up.
[START TAPE]
AMB. JOHN BOLTON:
Israel's response – and there should be a response – should not be proportionate. It should be far stronger because when deterrence fails to reestablish it you have to teach the adversary that any gain they may hope to get by any future attack will be more than outweighed by the damage that will be caused.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Joining me now is National Security Council Spokesman John Kirby. John, welcome back to Meet the Press.
JOHN KIRBY:
Thanks, Kristen. Good to be with you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you so much for being here. So, Iran says this attack is over. Israel's defense minister says the confrontation is not. What is the United States assessment of where things stand this morning? Is this over?
JOHN KIRBY:
Well, where things stand this morning is just an incredible military achievement by Israel and quite frankly the United States and other partners that helped Israel defend itself against more than three hundred drones and missiles. I mean it’s just an extraordinary example of military superiority that – that Israel demonstrated to the whole world last night. And I think Israel also demonstrated that it has friends, that it’s not standing alone. That it’s not isolated on the world stage. Now, whether and how the Israelis will respond? That’s going to be up to them. We understand that and respect that. But the President's been very clear we don't seek a war with Iran. We're not looking for escalation here. We will continue to help Israel defend itself.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Are you, as we sit here right now, aware of any threats to U.S. troops in the region?
JOHN KIRBY:
We are staying vigilant to exactly that potential threat, but we have not seen any attacks on U.S. troops or personnel in the region or our facilities, and nothing to report to you this morning. But we're going to obviously watch that very, very closely.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Just to get a sense of how this came together, did the United States have any backchannel communications with Iran, if only to deconflict the airspace over Syria?
JOHN KIRBY:
I would just – not in terms of the operations. But, I mean, obviously in the leadup to what happened yesterday –
KRISTEN WELKER:
So there were backchannel communications?
JOHN KIRBY:
We – we made it very clear. I would just say we made it very clear to all parties, including Iran, what we would do, and how we would continue to defend Israel. And also how seriously we would take any potential threat to our personnel and our facilities in the region.
KRISTEN WELKER:
A lot of people watched what happened in the skies over the Middle East overnight, and they are wondering this morning, "Has this now escalated into a wider war?"
JOHN KIRBY:
I don't think there's any reason that it needs to. And the president –
KRISTEN WELKER:
But has it? Has it? Are we now in the midst of a wider war?
JOHN KIRBY:
The president doesn't believe that it needs to move in that direction whatsoever, Kristen. What Israel demonstrated last night was an incredible ability to defend itself. Just their own military superiority was quite remarkable yesterday. I mean, very little got through, and the damage was extraordinarily light. And also, Israel demonstrated again, as I said, that they're not standing alone, that they have friends. So the president's been clear. We don't want to see this escalate. We don’t – we're not looking for a wider war with Iran. I think – I think, you know, the coming hours and days will tell us a lot.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But what's your response to Americans who see those missiles being intercepted in the skies overnight and believe that this has already escalated?
JOHN KIRBY:
I would ask the Americans that saw what happened last night to – to take heart in terms of the military capability of their forces in the region, how they are defending themselves and defending our interests in the region. And also, I – I – I reiterate what I said before: know that the president is working the diplomatic side of this personally. In fact, today, just a little bit later today, he's going to call the G-7 together to talk about a diplomatic response here.
KRISTEN WELKER:
NBC News is reporting that President Biden – talking about the diplomatic outreach – told Prime Minister Netanyahu that the United States will not participate in offensive operations against Iran. Can you confirm that?
JOHN KIRBY:
I won’t go into the greater detail of the conversation with the prime minister. They did have a good chat last night to talk about the –
KRISTEN WELKER:
What was the message? What was the broad message?
JOHN KIRBY:
It was – It was very clearly, you know, we stand with you in your self-defense. That was the main message that the president delivered to the Prime Minister. He congratulated the prime minister and the IDF for the extraordinary job they did knocking things out of the sky. But I won't go into more detail. Again, I just go back to what the president has said time and time again. We don't seek an escalation. We don't seek a wider war in the region.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So did he warn Israel not to respond? Did he say, "Take the win," as has been reported?
JOHN KIRBY:
I think the president was, again, very clear with Prime Minister Netanyahu about the success that they enjoyed last night and the impact that that success ought to have.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Are you anticipating a counterattack by Israel? And do you expect, has Israel given the United States any assurances that it will give the U.S. a warning, a heads-up before it moves forward with any type of counterattack?
JOHN KIRBY:
Whether and how the Israelis respond is going to be up to them. I'm certainly not going to get ahead of their decision making.
KRISTEN WELKER:
If Israel does move forward with retaliatory strikes, are you concerned that there will – that he will not be responsible about it, given that the United States was not given a heads-up before Israel lobbed that attack in Syria against Iranian officials?
JOHN KIRBY:
We have and we will stay in touch with our Israeli counterparts so that the information flow is as robust as possible.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, if Israel does decide to move forward with retaliatory strikes, will the United States support Israel? Or will Israel be going it alone?
JOHN KIRBY:
I won't get into hypotheticals one way or another here since Israel hasn't made any decisions, that I'm aware of, about what the next step is. They performed extraordinarily well last night, and it really was a largely unsuccessful attack by Iran. That is noteworthy, and that should be remembered. And, again, as I said earlier, it wasn’t that they – they didn't do it alone. They had the United States support. And as the president said to the prime minister last night, that support for Israel's self-defense will stay ironclad. It will not change.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Some Republican lawmakers are calling for the United States to respond directly to Iran. Has President Biden ruled out the U.S. launching a direct attack?
JOHN KIRBY:
As I said, the president has made it clear: We do not seek a war with Iran. We don't seek a wider war in the region.
JOHN KIRBY:
We don't want to see –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Is a direct attack off the table?
JOHN KIRBY:
– escalation.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Is it off the table?
JOHN KIRBY:
As the president said, we don't seek a war with Iran.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What is the red line that would cause the United States to get directly involved?
JOHN KIRBY:
Well, oh my goodness. I mean, we could sit here all day talking about what is and what isn't a red line. I'm not going to do that. I don't think it's helpful to get into hypotheticals. Let's focus on the task at hand, and the task at hand last night was to help Israel fend off hundreds of drones and missiles. And they did that successfully.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Weren’t – isn't the United States already involved to some extent though, given that as you say it did counter a number of those drones that were –
JOHN KIRBY:
That was –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– directed towards Israel?
JOHN KIRBY:
Yes, that was a purely defensive mission. It was completely consistent with our obligations and our commitments to the defense of Israel. And, again, Kristen, it wasn't just us. Other nations participated as well.
KRISTEN WELKER:
How many drones, how many missiles did the U.S. shoot out of the sky?
JOHN KIRBY:
I don't know what the final tally is. I think the Department of Defense will probably be looking at that. But I think, you could, it's safe to say several dozens of drones and missiles that the United States helped down.
KRISTEN WELKER:
President Biden said this week that Prime Minister Netanyahu's actions in Gaza are a, quote, "mistake." Do you trust his judgment in deciding how to respond to these attacks?
JOHN KIRBY:
He's the prime minister of Israel. He's the – he’s the elected leader of their government. We're going to continue to work with him, advise him, provide counsel and perspective, as well as make clear he knows—and I think he does, certainly from last night—that the United States will continue to help them defend themselves. I mean, there is still a very dire humanitarian situation in Gaza. And after the last call – not last night but the one before that—with the prime minister, the prime minister assured the president that he would work to meet some of the president's requests with respect to increasing the aid, opening up additional crossings, getting more trucks in. And you know what, Kristen? In the last few days, that has happened. Something on the order of 2,000 trucks have gotten in just since the discussion with Prime Minister Netanyahu a week or so ago. Now, is it enough? No, of course not. It's got to be sustained over time. But the Israelis are making efforts to try to make good on those commitments.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I don't have to tell you this, but the House has not yet passed aid to Israel and Ukraine. Given what has happened overnight in the Middle East, does that add urgency? What is your message to House lawmakers today? Should they be putting that supplemental on the floor this coming week?
JOHN KIRBY:
That they should put it on the floor as soon as possible. Last night – I mean, as if, we didn't need any reminders in terms of what's going on in Ukraine. But last night certainly underscores significantly the threat that Israel faces in a very, very tough neighborhood. So there's a – there’s a group – there’s a bipartisan bill by the Senate that all the House needs to do is take it up, put it on the floor. And you and I both know the votes are there. But there – we're just looking for leadership out of the speaker's office: get it on the floor, get it voted on so that not only Israel can get additional resources and defend itself – which they clearly need – but that Ukraine can as well.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. National Security Council Spokesman John Kirby, thank you so much for being here this morning. Really appreciate it.
JOHN KIRBY:
Yes, ma'am.
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, the FBI director is warning that events in the Middle East could inspire attacks on U.S. soil. Republican Congressman Mike Turner of Ohio, the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. FBI Director Christopher Wray warns this week, on Capitol Hill, that the bureau is growing increasingly concerned about the possibility of a coordinated attack inside the United States inspired by events in the Middle East.
[START TAPE]
CHRISTOPHER WRAY:
As I look back over my career in law enforcement, I would be hard pressed to think of a time where so many threats to our public safety and national security were so elevated all at once.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Joining me now is the Republican Chair of the House Intelligence Committee, Congressman Mike Turner of Ohio. Chairman Turner, welcome back to Meet the Press.
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Kristen, thanks for having me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you so much for being here. Let's start with the breaking news overnight: those strikes by Iran against Israel that were largely intercepted. What is your reaction this morning?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Well, obviously, the United States had advanced notice that this was going to occur and worked with Israel in preparations. I was briefed by the CIA director, Friday, of the preparations and the information that the United States was receiving. I think John Kirby, though, articulated very well due to your questions, the unfortunate, I think, fallacies in the Biden Administration's policies. The United States and Israel jointly developed missile-defense technology that went to work last night. And it was proven to be successful. And it is – it is deescalatory. It gives us space to be able to make appropriate decisions. But, unfortunately, the Biden Administration's view is that if you use missile defense, an attack didn't happen. That's the way they reacted to the over 100 attacks that have occurred on U.S. troops from terrorist groups and organizations in Iraq and Syria, resulting in three deaths of American troops in Jordan, all by – by Iranian-backed groups and organizations. I think the administration needs to take seriously that this attack has happened. It's unprecedented. And certainly, it needs to be viewed as an escalation. This is an escalating conflict.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, congressman, very quickly though, I do have to push back because, of course, those attacks that you reference, the United States did carry out counterattacks, more than 100 of them. And then, those attacks by those Iranian-backed groups did come to a close. But I do want to ask you what you think should happen next.
REP. MIKE TURNER:
But that's not necessarily true. So they – what the Biden Administration said is, if there are deaths, if American troops are hit, they're going to respond. Over 100 attacks on American troops, they did not respond. In this instance, you just hear John Kirby articulate that the – the defense was successful, and then almost as if a dismissal of the fact that Iran has attacked Israel directly – directly.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, and what he said was that he does not want to see this escalate into a wider war. So let me put this question to you. And, again, the United States did respond to those attacks with more than 100 counterattacks. Israel is saying – the war cabinet minister, Benny Gantz, just said, "We will exact a price from Iran in the fashion and timing that is right for us." Do you expect Israel to respond? Should Israel respond?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Well, even though these attacks are unprecedented coming directly from Iran, Israel has been under attack – under attack by Iran, you know, for decades. They fund and train Hezbollah. They fund and train Hamas, Hamas which undertook the October 7th attacks into Israel that were just, you know, vicious in a number of deaths in the manner in which it was executed, all as a result of they were trained, funded, and given weapons by Iran. So this has already been an ongoing conflict, where Israel understands that they have been under siege and under attack by Iran. It's the first time, though, that they have attacked directly from Iran. And certainly, this is an escalation. I think John Kirby is wrong to be able to say, "We don't want an escalating conflict." It is already escalating and the administration needs to respond.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So you believe this has already become a wider war within the Middle East, this morning? That is what you are saying?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Over 300 weapons were shot from Iran at Israel. This is an escalating conflict. The administration – because we were successful, because we invested in missile-defense technology with Israel, the administration is acting like, "Well, you know, done. We defended Israel against these attacks. This is not escalating." This is escalating.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, John Kirby wasn't necessarily saying, "Done." He was saying, "Let's not escalate this further." But let me ask you about what your Republican colleagues are saying because I want to get specific about what you would like to see, congressman. As you know, some of your Republican colleagues are saying this calls for the United States to respond directly by striking Iran. Would you support that? Should the United States go on offense, and strike Iran, engage directly with Iran?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
I think what the United States needs to – to do is to understand that Iran has already taken the next step, excuse me, of understanding that they get a free pass for attacking Israel directly from Iranian soil from the United States. And I do believe that they would do it –
KRISTEN WELKER:
So is that a yes? Is that a yes, congressman? You're saying –
REP. MIKE TURNER:
No. I believe that they will – I believe that they will do it again. And I think the United States needs to make clear, which this administration has not, that if they continue to attack Israel, that, yes, they will get a response from Iran. Iran is in a very vulnerable position. It’s nuclear – first off, it should never be allowed to be a nuclear weapons state. This administration gave it $6 billion to release detainees. It has continued to –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Wait. Hold on. Those assets were frozen. Congressman, as you know, those were Iranian funds and the assets are now frozen. Let me ask you this, Donald Trump –
REP. MIKE TURNER:
This administration permitted Iran to have access to $6 billion that it did not have access to before.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But those assets are frozen –
REP. MIKE TURNER:
This administration –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– and haven't made their way to Iran, as you know, congressman.
REP. MIKE TURNER:
This administration has continued where – to fail to recognize that Iran is an adversary. It's an adversary to Israel. It is coordinating Hezbollah, Hamas, the Houthis in Yemen and attacks on commercial waterways. The administration continues to look the other way and fail to recognize that this is escalating –
KRISTEN WELKER:
But, congressman –
REP. MIKE TURNER:
– and they're going to have to step up to the plate.
KRISTEN WELKER:
The administration has done what you've said that they should do, which is to warn that there will be countermeasures if Iran continues to escalate. I'm asking you what should be done right now. Donald Trump's national former security – former national security advisor, John Bolton, called on Israel to destroy Iran's nuclear weapons program. Would you support that?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Well, first off, Israel shouldn’t – and the United States have made it very clear that Iran should never be permitted to become a nuclear weapons state. This administration, however, has been very slow to – to step up to that declaration. They have instated – instead worked to try to engage Iran and failed to see it as an adversary of, really, the malicious force that is destabilizing the Middle East.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But, congressman, can you –
REP. MIKE TURNER:
While Iran was destabilizing the Middle East, they continued to work with Iran. And – and I think they've emboldened Iran.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well –
REP. MIKE TURNER:
This administration's failing to say, "There is a red line." There should be a red line.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Congressman, after Donald Trump pulled out of the Iran nuclear deal, Iran is now closer to developing a nuclear weapon. But can you just answer my question? Would you support that? Would you support Israel targeting Iran's nuclear weapons program? Just on that question, would you support Israel doing that?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Well, I was answering to you before. Iran is very vulnerable, both in its nuclear weapons sites, but even in its weapons production sites, those weapons that are showing up on the battlefield of Ukraine in the hands of Russians, and also its – its oil, logistics and export facilities. It is in a very vulnerable position. If Israel sees that it has to rise to the occasion to attack Iran directly in order to protect itself, then certainly I think the United States supports Israel's right to defend itself. You have a country, Iran, that is destabilizing the Middle East, continues to produce weapons capabilities that they're even exporting to Europe. They have their proxies that are attacking Israel, shipping commercial lanes. They – they are escalating, while this administration continues to deny it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Congressman, bottom line here, do you want to see U.S. military action against Iran or Israel take a countermeasure against Iran?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
I don't think, at this point, that the United States should be engaged in military action directly at Iran. But I do believe that, if this administration fails to step up to the plate, and understand that we have an escalating conflict, and make it clear to Iran that there are red lines and that the United States will defend Israel and will not allow Iran to become a weapons state, that we will be in a broader conflict and we will have less options. Their – their failure to box in Iran and let them understand that there will be consequences makes it – make it more dangerous every day.
KRISTEN WELKER:
As you know, this aid package that will provide aid to Israel, but also Ukraine, has been held up, has been blocked by former President Trump. Do you want to see the House speaker bring this to the floor for a vote this week? And has he given you any assurances that he will do so?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Well, it's not been held up by Donald Trump, first off, let's be clear. It's being held up in the House by debates and deliberations in the House of Representatives. I think that the speaker has been very clear. He supports Ukraine funding. He supports funding for Israel. He supports the Asia package that’s part of the national security supplemental. And he has made it clear that he sees that the path is for that to come to the House floor, this week. I think it will have overwhelming support, both the Ukraine, Israel and Asia packages, not just because of what's happened with Iran escalating the conflict in the Middle East, but because these are allies that need and deserve our support.
KRISTEN WELKER:
As you know, Donald Trump has been on the sidelines, saying he doesn't want to see that aid go to Ukraine, unless it's in the form of a loan. But just very quickly, do you expect it to get a vote this week, congressman?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
I do. And I expect it to pass. And, by the way, Donald Trump had said, on the humanitarian – the other – the support to the Ukrainian government, on the weapons, the military support, everyone has been very much on the side of understanding that we're at a critical point. Russia is beginning to gain ground. Ukraine is beginning to lose the ability to defend itself. And the United States must step up and provide Ukraine the weapons that they need. And I think we're going to see overwhelming support for that in the House this week.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Chairman Turner, I have a lot more questions, but we are out of time. Thank you so much for joining me.
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Kristen, thank you so much.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I really appreciate it. When we come back, Democratic Governor Gretchen Whitmer of Michigan joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. Now to the issue that could be a defining one for the 2024 election: abortion. This week we were reminded of its power and potency, when on Tuesday the Arizona State Supreme Court reinstated an 1864 law that bans nearly all abortions, making the presidential battleground state ground zero for the fight of reproductive rights. Democrats wasted no time seizing on the moment. Vice President Kamala Harris traveled to Arizona on Friday and blasted the ban, while putting the blame squarely on former President Trump, who appointed the three conservative Supreme Court justices who made it possible to overturn Roe v. Wade.
[START TAPE]
VICE PRES. KAMALA HARRIS:
Donald Trump is the architect of this health care crisis. And that is not a fact, by the way, that he hides. In fact, he brags about it. Just this week he said that he is, quote, "Proudly the person responsible for overturning Roe."
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Now for his part, the presumptive GOP nominee has consistently struggled to define where he stands on the issue. After initially saying this week, "Abortion is an issue that states will decide," Trump then said the Arizona State Supreme Court went too far. And he aimed to distance himself from supporting a national ban. But as President Trump endorsed a 20-week federal ban on abortion back in 2017. It's Trump's latest position on abortion in a political career marked by a number of them.
[START TAPE]
TIM RUSSERT:
Would President Trump ban partial-birth abortions?
DONALD TRUMP:
Well, look, I'm very pro-choice. I hate the concept of abortion. I hate it. I hate everything it stands for. I cringe when I listen to people debating the subject. But I just believe in choice.
CHRIS MATTHEWS:
Do you believe in punishment for abortion, yes or no, as a principle?
DONALD TRUMP:
The answer is that there has to be some form of punishment.
CHRIS MATTHEWS:
For the woman?
DONALD TRUMP:
Yeah. The justices that I'm going to appoint will be pro-life. They will have a conservative bent. Unborn children have never had a stronger defender in the White House. So for 52 years people have wanted to end Roe v. Wade to get it back to the states. We did that. It was an incredible thing. It's an incredible achievement. We did that. And now the states have it.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Meanwhile, a year after the Dobbs decision, more than 60% of voters disapproved of the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade. So where does the battle over abortion go from here? Joining me now is the Democratic governor of Michigan, Gretchen Whitmer. Governor Whitmer, welcome back to Meet the Press.
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER:
Thanks for having me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, governor, thank you for being here on a big morning. Former President Trump held a rally last night. He did not mention the issue of abortion. But earlier this week, he noted that abortion laws are left up to the states. He said he wouldn't support a national ban. How concerned are you that his efforts to straddle the line could effectively weaken this issue for Democrats?
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER:
Well, I think your phraseology "straddle the line" is generous. He's lied. He's lied over and over again to the people of this country. The only person who should be making a decision about whether and when to have a child is a woman, the people she loves and trusts, and her doctor. Period. Politicians need to get out of the way. And the American people have over and over again told that's their exact expectations. And so, as I speak to people in my state or around the country, it's very clear abortion is not just on the ballot in places like Arizona and Florida. It is on the ballot in all 50 states, because the former president has said many different times that he would sign a national abortion ban. And that's really a very real possibility that would undo all the progress we've made in states like Michigan, Ohio, Kentucky, et cetera. This is on the ballot for every one of us in this presidential election.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Governor, you take me to my next question, which is do you think that President Biden should make this the defining issue, above all others, in 2024, on the campaign trail?
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER:
Well, I think that this is at the heart of so many Americans' concerns. Our fundamental freedoms as Americans, our ability to make the most consequential economic decision in our lifetime is whether and when to have a child. It is the ability for the infertile couples, so many millions of whom have relied on embryonic in vitro fertilization. All of these things are very much at risk. And I know that it is at the heart and center of people who want desperately to start families, who desperately need access to medical care. And our choice could not be more stark. We have a president right now who is standing between a national abortion ban, and has used his powers to expand access for women in this country. And the guy who appointed three lying Supreme Court justices to the bench who are the architects of the Roe repeal. And let's be very clear, Donald Trump did this.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So just to be very clear, should President Biden make this the number one issue? Should abortion be the number one issue in 2024?
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER:
Well, abortion, the fundamentals of our democracy, whether or not we can be safe here, whether or not we're going to continue to rebuild American manufacturing and bring supply chains home. I mean, it's hard to say what one issue is more important than others when there are so many fundamental issues that are at stake, and that we've got two candidates that couldn't be more different on all of these issues. But I do think that the fundamental right to make your own decisions about your body is going to be a number one motivator for a lot of folks in this country.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Governor, President Biden has said that if he's reelected he will codify Roe v. Wade. As you know, it is highly unlikely he will have 60 votes in the Senate to do that. Is the president offering voters false hope on this point?
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER:
I think the president has been very clear that he absolutely supports this fundamental reproductive freedom for all Americans. And he'll do everything in his power. You know, we thought in Ohio it might be really difficult to get abortion rights codified. They surprised us. And so, I'm not going to foresee and predict what the odds are. But I can tell you we have seen this issue has motivated people because they know that this is a fundamental question of who we are as a society, and how we are going to empower Americans to do what they need to do to protect their health, to grow their families, to make their own decisions in their own lives. And politicians should get the heck out of the way.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you a little bit about the policy. According to the CDC, slightly less than 1% of abortions occur after fetal viability. Where do you stand on this, Governor? Should there be any limits on abortion after viability, which usually falls somewhere between 24 to 26 weeks?
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER:
You know, the Roe standards have that. And that's precisely what we've been fighting for. At the end of the day, I--
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you support that, Governor? Just to be clear, you would support some limitations after viability?
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER:
I would support the Roe standard becoming the law of the nation again. That's exactly where I'm at. I know that's where most Americans are. But I'll also share with you, Kristen, I am not a doctor. I would rely on medical advice. But in my experience, it is only the woman and the person who's giving her her medical advice – a scientist – that should be articulating what the standards are in this space.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I ask in part because, as you know, former President Trump has falsely accused Democrats of wanting abortion up until birth. Do you think that Democrats need to more clearly define where they stand on this part of the debate, on where limits should be?
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER:
I think what we should do is be holding Donald Trump accountable. Let's remember, the reason that we're in this mess is because of his appointees to the Supreme Court. Three people who lied to Congress when they said they thought Roe was the settled law of the land. He put them on that court and they are the reason that Roe was ripped away from Americans. They've lied to us. He has lied to us. You cannot trust anything Donald Trump says about this issue or, frankly, in my opinion, a whole host of others. And that's precisely why I think it's so important that we re-elect Joe Biden and Kamala Harris to the White House. Because they are the only ones you can trust on this issue. Their position has been rock solid. They trust women and medical providers. And that's the only people who should be making these decisions.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's talk about what is happening in the Middle East. Approximately 60% of Michigan voters disapprove of President Biden's handling of the war in Gaza. Your state obviously has the largest Arab-American population in the country. Less than 20% of Arab-Americans nationally say that they will vote to reelect President Biden. Do you think this issue, President Biden's handling of the war in the Middle East, could cost him the State of Michigan?
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER:
I think that the State of Michigan is always going to be a close race, no matter under what scenario. I will share, though, as I've had conversations with people both in my Jewish community and in the Arab-American, and Muslim, and Palestinian communities, that a lot of people are hurting right now. A lot of people are one degree of separation from someone who's lost their lives, whether it was on October 7th or is in the war in Gaza. And so, I'm trying to keep an open dialogue to stay focused on how we support these beautiful, diverse communities here in Michigan. And I'm hoping for peace. But obviously after the events of the last 24 hours, there is a lot that is evolving here. And I'm glad to see that our president said he remains – we have an ironclad commitment to the security of Israel.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Some Democrats, including from your state, are calling the war in Gaza a genocide. Would you go that far? Do you believe that what is happening inside Gaza is a genocide?
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER:
I think that it's heartbreaking to see the loss of so many innocent lives, children, every day that this war continues to be prosecuted. And that's why as governor and commander-in-chief of the Michigan National Guard, I'm watching this very closely and doing what I can to support all of these communities here in Michigan.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But you don't go that far to use that term "genocide?"
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER:
I'm not going to weigh in where I know that a lot of these terms are used to inflame and divide us. I'm going to stay focused on being productive and hoping that we can have some peace very soon.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I want to ask you about what the country will be watching this week. Former President Trump's criminal trial will get underway in New York in Manhattan for allegedly falsifying business records to attempt to conceal payments to a porn star. We should note that Mr. Trump has denied any wrongdoing in this case. Do you think the Biden campaign, which is currently planning to counterprogram these criminal trials, should be leaning in more directly, talking about Trump's trials directly?
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER:
You know, I'm not sure, Kristen, to be honest. We are in unprecedented territory. We have a former sitting president who's got four different criminal trials in process. This one's kicking off. We keep referring to it as "hush money," but I like how you actually went a step further to explain to people he lied on his business financials. This is a man who is loyal to one thing. The truth is not it. It is Donald Trump. His story changes. He has betrayed his oath of office. He betrayed his postpartum wife and their new child. He has betrayed all the people that invested in his companies and the people who worked for him. This is, I think, one more very clear reason why I don't think we can trust this man with our future, with our democracy, and certainly with our fundamental rights.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Governor Gretchen Whitmer, thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it.
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER:
Thanks for having me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And when we come back, from the Bronco chase to the televised trial, how the O.J. Simpson murder trial captivated the nation. Our Meet the Press Minute is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
O.J. Simpson died this week, the former NFL running back was, of course, best known for that low speed car chase in 1994, when 95,000,000 Americans watched his white Ford Bronco flee from police across Los Angeles, just days after the murders of his ex-wife Nicole Brown Simpson and her friend Ronald Goldman. Then there was the trial of the century, in which Simpson was acquitted. It redefined celebrity trials in the age of cable television. Bob Costas was a long-time sportscaster with NBC. He worked with Simpson and joined this broadcast as his former colleague was preparing to stand trial.
[START TAPE]
BOB COSTAS:
This is a tragedy that has, I guess, almost inevitably in this mass media age, and cameras in the courtroom, and tabloid television, and the way mainstream television and the press is affected by that tabloid influence, it's a tragedy that has rapidly become a spectacle. But we have to keep in mind a horrible crime has been committed. And there are two victims. A man is on trial for his life. As shocking as the accusations against O.J. remain, even as we've had time to digest it, to those of us who knew him, I think the only thing a reasonable person hopes for is that justice will be served here, regardless of what that outcome is, that justice will be served, not evaded, or manipulated, or obscured by peripheral issues.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, he's facing 34 felony counts for falsifying business records. Donald Trump's first criminal trial will begin on Monday in Manhattan. The panel joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here. NBC News Washington Managing Editor, Carol Lee; Eugene Robinson, columnist for the Washington Post; and Peggy Noonan, columnist for the Wall Street Journal. Thanks to all of you for being here on a very busy morning. Carol, let's talk about Iran for the moment. In the context of, obviously, all of this is taking place against the backdrop of the 2024 race. This is undoubtedly yet another contour. And you have new reporting that the United States has deep concerns about how Israel may respond.
CAROL LEE:
They do. They're very concerned – administration officials – that Israelis could respond by doing something rash. There's been a lot of frustration among top administration officials with the fact that Israel took this strike initially in Damascus, because from the administration's perspective, they did so without having a strategy, without thinking through the timing of the strike, what happens next after the strike. And one official described Israel's approach to military operations, generally, as frenetic. And so it's the same concern, Kristen, that they've had with the way Israel's conducted the war in Gaza, this sort of shoot first, ask questions later. And so what we've seen from the administration in the past two weeks is a real effort across the region of diplomacy, to try to shape what happens next here. And from their perspective, their goal was, they knew Iran had to respond, that Iran would respond, but do so in a way that it didn't cause too much damage, so Israel didn't have to react in a very aggressive way. It seems to have played out like that so far. But they don't know what's going to happen next, and whether Prime Minister Netanyahu will, in the words of the president, "Take the win."
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. I know you'll be tracking that very closely. We all will be, because, again, it will have implications for 2024. Peggy, another thing that will have big implications for 2024, the Trump trial. There could be more than one. But we know that his first one gets underway tomorrow, again, for those alleged falsified business payments that he made to an adult porn star. He has denied any wrongdoing. I want to play a little bit of what he said about this at his rally overnight in Pennsylvania. Take a look.
[START TAPE]
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
When I walk into that courtroom, I know I will have the love of 200,000,000 Americans behind me. And I consider it a great badge of honor, because I am being indicted for you.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
You have written that bringing the charges against the former president in this case was, quote, "Below us as a country." What do you mean? What are you going to be watching for?
PEGGY NOONAN:
Oh my gosh. One always – one always hopes it's below us. If you know what I mean. I think we're going to have like six weeks of headlines, and talking about porn star, hush money, who knew it, dramatic testimony, steamy stuff. I'm not sure that does any good. I preferred the January 6th investigation, and the serious Georgia case. That said, this is happening. I have some areas of curiosity. How long will it go? I hope it doesn't go like O.J.'s – nine months. What impact will it have that the former president will be in the court, but the testimony will not be live on TV? I don't suppose this is the sort of thing that is going to make our children more inspired about democracy. I – I do think the charges are probably by and large true. It'll work through the system. We'll see where it goes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Eugene, what are you going to be watching for? Trump has used this as a chance to argue this is an example of a two-tiered system of justice. This case was brought, of course, by a grand jury.
EUGENE ROBINSON:
Yeah. It was brought by a grand jury. And, yeah. It's a two-tiered system of justice. So if you are wealthy and famous, you can delay the proceedings indefinitely, as he has done with his other criminal trials. You can hire, you know, really good lawyers. And apparently, you can if not violate them, certainly skirt the edges of court orders by insulting over, and over again, attacking the judge, the judge's family, other people connected with the case. You can talk about the case constantly, in a way, frankly, that a defendant who was less wealthy, and famous and powerful than Donald Trump would never get away with. I mean, we're talking contempt of court. And you're talking a lot of defendants would have been stepped back to the cells.
KRISTEN WELKER:
He already has a partial gag order against him. And a lot of questions about whether he's violated that. Carol, it was so notable. I asked Gretchen Whitmer, "Should Biden be leaning into this directly?" She said, "I'm not sure." You have reporting that he's not going to. He's going to do the counter-programming thing. And by the way, some Democrats don't think that that's the right strategy.
CAROL LEE:
That's exactly right. One Democrat strategist told us that they think the president should go on the offense on this, that he should be hitting back, specifically about the attacks from former President Trump, that these are Biden trials, that the president is somehow behind this, so it's thought, in order to sideline him from campaigning. But what the White House has decided to do, the Biden campaign, is put the president out there, and create these sort of dueling images they hope speak for themselves. You have Trump in court. You're going to have President Biden in Pennsylvania over three days, talking about the economy, hitting former President Trump on his tax proposal, saying he would benefit the wealthy. The president's fighting for the middle class, all the while, having his campaign really keep up this pressure on the abortion issue. But, again, it's a risk. And it's not something all Democrats agree on.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. I think it'll be fascinating to see if he gets more pressure to lean into this a little bit more directly. Arguably, I think one of the biggest X factors as we sit here today is the issue of abortion. In your report, Carol, you also say abortion could make up the margin of difference in this case. Peggy, how do you see this? Trump has tried to sort of have it a number of different ways. He says Arizona went too far. But he's not going to sign a national ban. How do you see this playing out?
PEGGY NOONAN:
Look: Donald Trump has always been transactional. Oddly enough, I think a lot of his pro-life supporters understood he was transactional, didn't mind it, because they liked the transaction. I think we're watching Donald Trump every day try to get from under the implications of his own act, having set up the process by which Roe v. Wade was removed. Trump wanted its return to the states. The states seem to have made an awkward mess of it in some respects. He wants to get away from the mess. And so now he's doing what he does. He's a transactional fellow. One thing I would tell the Democrats: I sense that they are just going, "Abortion. Abortion. Abortion." That's the plan for the next six months. That's not going to look so great. Don't overplay your hand. They've got public opinion at the moment, but –
KRISTEN WELKER:
What about that?
EUGENE ROBINSON:
Well, it looks like a pretty strong hand to me. I mean, if you look at elections that have taken place, the referenda on reproductive rights, elections in which candidates were on different sides of the abortion issue since the demise of Roe v. Wade, they have gone pretty heavily toward the Democrats. And I think this is something that the Republican party is going to have to try to figure out. How do they get to where the American people are on abortion? Which is basically acknowledgment of a constitutional right.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. A lot of Republicans talking about how to do exactly that. Thank you all for a phenomenal conversation. That is all for today. Thank you for watching. We will be back next week, because if it's Sunday, it's Meet The Press.